Hi Penny, If you want to contact me my e-mail is: moorgun@ntlworld.com
I'm sure we can arrange something to suit,
Peter

training

Hi Peter,

I'm still very interested in training, would it be possible to have more details about individual work with you ? I think this blog is has probably had enough of the subject by now !! Can I get in touch with you somehow?
Many Thanks.

Just catching up.
Congratulations to Sharon, Jim & Louis on passing the KC Gold Award, very well done, a great achievement.
Some very interesting reading on training, I have enjoyed all the posts.
Great picture from Canada a fantastic view, and what a wonderful vantage point to take the picture from.
Hope everyone out there is enjoying their Munsterlanders, we have had quite a lot of rain recently so back to all the mud, Oh What Joy !!!! Has been fine today, but they still managed to find plenty of muddy puddles.

Munsters of Canada

I havent been on the blog for a long, long time. Just like to say hello, and post a picture of Duke and Duchess. Duke is son of Logi and Duchess is Daughter of Leah, Elly May is the Springer. This was taken on a hike I took to the top of the mountain we live on in Kelwona, British Columbia Canada.

Hi Peter,
Again, many thanks. I would certainly be interested in hands on education, individually or in a group.Would anyone else like to get involved ?
Whereabouts in the south could it happen, Karen, would you be interested - are you anywhere near the Wiltshire border ?
I'm keen to get Lola trained well enough before the next shooting season, so that I can take her out with some confidence, I'm keen to do what I can for her, myself and the shoot !!
Should we try to get something going via this website ? Could we have some idea of costs etc ?
Happy to give you my home contact details if I'm allowed to here.

Hi Karen & Penny,
I don't know Nick Gregory, but I do know of Hamptworth Estate as I was down there a few weeks ago doing a KC Seminar with the HPRFTA. Whilst I am always available to help with training, I have become slightly sceptical at those wishing to train. In the past there were always voices complaining at the `lack of training'. After several years of listening to this, through the Club and on several blogs etc. I made arrangements using the Swifthouse training ground in Oxford to put on some training sessions, whilst a few took up the opportunity, these were the minority of those that did the complaining, and I was not surprised at the variety of excuses that were forthcoming as to why these people could not make it! I concluded that talking about training from the comfort of your own keyboard is alot different than getting arses into cars and actually make the effort to do it!
Presently I am `buddying' a couple of hprs and their owners, a Britany and a Weim, it does mean I get to see their dogs on their own ground, so I get to see the real problems with all the trimmings, and not just what the owners `think' are the problems. I must say I like this rather than formal group training sessions as its tailor made to the handler and the dog, and they can learn to communicate better with their dog ( handler) as I'm there to `translate', and often this is at the root of most problems. The disadvantage is of course its not cheaper than sharing the cost as a group, but then you may have to have several group sessions before you get to `your' problem! Anyway if a group of you want to get together and do the organising I'm happy to share my know how.
Penny, It sounds like the dog has only a fragile grasp of the sit and you've moved a little too fast before the dog has confidence in the signal. Its all about perception, to you sit means sit, but to the dog it hears the sound and associates it with sit by you, as in teaching the sit you were probably always next to it. Thinking about it, when my puppies are being taught the sit I'm nearly always facing them, which is why this is an easier transition to `distant sits', but I digress!
Rather than trying to achieve distant sits I would concentrate on teaching the dog sit/stay. The dog can gain confidence in the sit by heel ( which is her translation of your sit command) and you can expand it by moving away from the dog whilst its sat. This is also good at getting the raised hand signal for sit into the dogs mind eye, as it can be used to `hold' the dog on the sit as you move away, ( or if the dog breaks the sit, keeping it raised as you move back towards the dog to replace it in the sit, will associate the hand signal to the act of sitting).
There is a lot said in dog training circles about training the dog in ever more demanding environments to further the dogs learning. This is indeed true, but many forget that the dogs perception of your position when giving instructions may also change their understanding of those instructions. The sit/stay is often over looked in this respect as by moving around the dog and at different distances you can both broaden and strengthen various signals to a learned instruction and in so doing build up a young dogs confidence.
You will find that a re occurring theme in my methods of training involve in always looking for positives that can be achieved out of negatives, and also planting seeds in training for something in the future whilst training something in the present.
Remember when teaching a new signal for an action always put the new signal in front of the established signal. i.e. establish the voice `sit'
show the hand signal then say sit
blow the whistle ( hand signal) then say sit
In advance training game flushing becomes the sit signal, which is why the stop whistle needs to be good so that this can be achieved.
Peter

Hi Peter,
Thankyou so much for all the info - I'm sure we're all hanging onto your every word !!
Above is a photo of Lola and Minden, taken in August, and I can't believe how much she's grown since then !! She's slightly bigger than Minden (black one) now.

The Stop. Again. I'm teaching her the hand signal as well as a verbal sit. When I call sit and give the hand signal as well, ( only in the garden so far, it's quite big so she is some distance away from me - she's too distracted outside) - she looks at me, runs back to me and then sits.
Sort of right - trouble is, when she's on the lead I can't do a distance sit can I? - because she's right next to me - should I be using a long training lead...??!
Any answers would be appreciated. The trouble is, I need the training as much as Lola !
Many Thanks.

Illy posing

We went on a short trip to the Peak District last weekend, Illy enjoyed exploring the woods surrounding a reservoir and she then went for a nice pub lunch

Peter, do you know Nick Gregory - Hamptworth Gundogs http://www.hamptworthestate.co.uk/Gundogs.asp, where he trains is near The New Forest? Just wondered if he would be able to let us have use of some of the estate grounds for a training event with you, or both of you.

I'm making progress with Mazy, but I'm sure several of us in the South of the country would love to have the opportunity to work with you if you would be willing.

Hi Penny,
As a matter of interest I do actually live in Wiltshire, but do not have ground to train on.
No dog is ever to old to train, however as with most things in life habits are harder to break the more established they are, and therefore require a strong resolve from the trainer in order to get to the same level as a dog trained correctly from the word go. I start training the stop the moment the puppy arrives home, as the intention is for it to be an instinctive reaction to the command as this means that the action starts to take place on hearing the command no matter what the dog is doing. The stop and the recall are what I call the only `commands' I use, virtually all others are `instructions'. As commands they , once trained, are non-negotiable and non compliance always results in a negative consequence for the dog. With mine this usually means a long period of lead walking and repetition of training commands and instructions whilst remaining on the lead. It is important however to remember that when training these commands, the actions achieved must always be fun and rewarding for the dog, and this is somewhat confusing for the novice handler, as when to bring in a negative consequence without losing the `fun'. It helps when you know the character and mental thought processes of your dog, and that when your dog does not do what you think it has learnt, its not down to the dog being `rebellious' it is more likely that you have credited it with more ability to learn that it actually possesses!
To ensure everybody is on the same page, I'll reiterate that the STOP is trained as the SIT. By definition a sat dog is stopped, and likewise a sat dog does not need a `stay' as it should not break the sit until you give it its next instruction. I always start to train the sit with a new puppy at feed times, as the puppy is generally in the right position of sitting when waiting for its food which is prepared above its head height. The word sit is given before the dog naturally goes into the sit or is put into the sit, ( I also use the raised hand as a visual signal, but don't use the whistle for sit until the dog is doing sits in the garden as part of another game, often using the hand signal as an aid in this transformation. Its important to realise that my dogs have all three signals for sit, although the whistle becomes the stop, the dogs ears are not concentrating on the distraction during a chase! and therefore is available to me!) When the puppy sits it is rewarded by having its food and thus an association is formed. I can also manipulate this into a learning sequence by removing the food before the puppy reaches it, if it breaks the sit before being told to do so, this makes the puppy focus on you for instructions, and can often reverse the consequences of an overindulge young puppy who may have inadvertently been given a high status.
Once this stage has been achieved, I will often move the puppy into another room at feed time, and with the food down go through the sit, often this will worry the puppy and is a test of its concentration and trust, as well as what it has actually learnt as a signal, ( an older dog will get one of the three to ensure it understands ALL three) A note of caution here is if the puppy sits without a command its not learning the signal its more likely its associating the event!
Once I'm confident in the dogs understanding of the command I start to build in the speed of compliance, again this is reward based, although the reward is very subtle and is in fact the release. i.e. the faster the dog sits the quicker it is released from the sit. From the command being given I count to when the dogs bum is on the ground, I then double it and count this out before I release. If you are consistent with this sooner or later the dog will make the connection, especially if you do not let the dog do anything else except do the sit once the command has been given. If the dog refuses to sit and requires putting in the sit its then returned to lead training, do not make the mistake of repeating the command to get compliance.
An older dog that is use to `free running' has to do several sits on a lead before it is released, and then is tested regularly during its free running with the whistle, any resistance to sit, the ` I'll just finish this sniff before I comply' syndrome, results in being put on the lead and kept on lead stops for the rest of that walk, remember to use any set backs to your advantage, putting the dog on a lead gives you an opportunity to work on heel walk, sits, downs and waits, which all go to keep the dog focus on you. Something else to consider, especially with gundogs, when hunting they like to get there first, so if they have been slow to sit, then if you keep walking whilst you are counting out their release, you will be getting onto the hunting ground first, and you will quickly see a positive result to this technique. Something else to consider is that, unless you are in advance hunting /working, that on release your dog should return to you with the recall so both can be worked on simultaneously, and manipulated and assessed on a day to day basis, just remember to leave any negativity for a poor sit/stop at the point of sit not on the recall which should always be rewarded in a young dog like you have not seen each other for some time,
Do they give up the chase and sit? Well earlier this year, Teal'q was hunting out some scrub on the way home, and he flushed out a roe doe, now we know this doe and I have used her to train him, he is a deer dog after all. But because this doe is use to my dogs being steady, instead of galloping across the field away, she decided to do an idle trot, which meant Teal'q thought his luck was in as he broke cover. By the time I realised what the doe was doing, Teal'q had made good ground and closed the gap to about ten metres, the doe was nearly stopped and turning to watch the dog ( thinking he usually never gave chase!) I hit the stop whistle and he stopped nearly colliding with the deer as he did so, she jumped over the dog (thats how close he was) and then took off. So he's about 90% on the stop, always room for improvement!
Peter

"Stop " training.

Thankyou all, especially munstyman for the incredibly helpful and sound advice about training Munsterlanders. You are so right, - other gun dog owners expect a Munsty to be as easily trained as a Spaniel or Lab and really can't understand that our dogs are not at all the same. It's very frustrating, and I find myself constantly trying to make them understand that Munsterlanders are different - ( usually to no avail !!)
Going back to basics with the stop - please could you tell me how to backtrack to this stage and how to start and work through this area of training. Although Lola is pretty good at coming back to the whistle, she would totally ignore me if a deer was around, sometimes chasing jackdaws in the fields is too much of a temptation as well. She learned to chase seagulls on Cornish beaches in the summer - I was pretty annoyed that I gave her the opportunity. A good STOP would make life a lot easier. Is she too set in her ways (8mths) to retrain ?? and do they honestly give up the chase and sit ??????
I don't suppose Munstyman lives in Wiltshire and gives classes by any chance...........................?
Many many thanks.