Brodie and Louis

Here’s a photo of the boys taken today. Their faces represent their personalities well: Brodie the carefree hooligan and Louis (my 13 month longhair) the more serious boy!
The pair still get on really well together which I’m sure is down to Brodie’s tolerance of Louis puppy behavior.
Louis just passed his KC gold good citizen today, so I’m very pleased with him. I’d have given him a treat but both boys are fast asleep. We were doing stop training to a gunshot today and it’s obviously tired them both out!

Recall etc

Hi all, we too experience somewhat similar challenges with Dodger, he too is 14 months. His recall is normally quite good, but sometimes he is so keen on something he forgets we're there! We shall be practising the stop - although getting Dodger to sit is somewhat of a challenge. We have restricted his free running as such whilst we concentrate on this and have joined our local gundog training club to get more specific training for him.

We went for the first time last week, I got dragged around a bit when Dodger wanted to meet everyone, and he has a lot of learning to do. They've suggested we try some other things to overcome his pulling on lead, so we're trying a slip lead. At 35kg he's a big dog when he wants to pull.

We're also working on him waiting to fetch his toys/training dummy so that every time it's thrown it's not a given that he gets it, nor is it a cue for him to go get it straight away, instead he needs to learn to wait until he is given the command to fetch it.

One other thing we're undertaking is whistle training. Ones are on order from Canine Concepts which he seems to prick his ears up to when we play the sound. We tried all the test ones online, and he seems to show a response to two of them, so we'll see what happens when they arrive.

My hope is by taking him to gundog training and learning those skills and training that it will help him develop further. He seems to be very bored with the standard training in class, so this is a very different approach.

Dodger is our first Munsterlander so we too and working hard to figure out how best to work with him for all of us.

Totverbeller

Hi Helen, this is the term given to the dog which on finding a large wounded animal following a blood trail, stays with the animal and barks drawing the handler to it.
There is also the terms `Tortverweiser' and `Totverweise mit Bringsel'. The first involves the dog running back and forth between the animal and the handler, sometimes taking the handlers arm to `take' them or inform them that they have `found' and thus drawing the handler to the animal. ( This should sound familiar to those of you who are regularly `mouthed' by your Munster) . The second involves training the dog to hold a leather tag in its mouth when it finds the animal, this tag or bringsel is attached to the dogs collar. when the dog returns to the handler with bringsel in its mouth, the handler attaches the tracking line and follows the dog to the animal.
I don't know of any Munster owner ( those that are honest at least) who haven't been a little over awed by the `step up' in dog terms of owning and training a munster compared to `normal' dogs. I know most breeders try to emphasise this fact, but I guess most people don't ever appreciate this advise, as surely a dog is a dog! I come from a background of Labs, Springers and then Cockers so you would think it should of been easy, but even I was way out of my depth with my first Munster, its not so much a steep learning curve, as it is a completely different way of training and understanding, these dogs work WITH you not FOR you, as a partnership you become one, whilst you may have the final say, you still have to justify it to the dog! ( and in their language so they can understand) Just as you want to teach the dog, you have to remember that these dogs are just as willing to teach you....if your willing to learn, the world of a munster is simple and fun but ordered, and there is probably some `secret of life' stuff in there too.
Peter

Good Advice

Thank you Amanda and Elspeth for letting me know I am not the only one who has these difficulties with my munsterlander, it is very comforting.

Many thanks to you too Peter, your advice is extremely informative and full of common sense, the free running has already been curtailed. By the way what is 'tortverbelling'?

Ziggy is my first experience with an HPR so it is a very steep learning curve; we have always had flatcoated retrievers and labs who haven't had a high prey drive and have tended to have laid back personalities whereas Ziggy is always on high alert. My main objective is to have a well-balanced, well-behaved dog so we will keep on working until that happens.

Do keep us posted with Murphy and Ceilidh's progress it's very helpful to know how you and they are dealing with their training.

Those having `recall' problems

There is an old lore in gundog training, `never give a command you are not able to enforce!'
Using recall on a dog that is doing its own thing and is effectively out of control ( I'll deal with that later), is just such an occasion. If you think about it all you are doing is teaching the dog to ignore you, even if the dog comes back eventually you can neither correct its slow response or reward its return, as it has returned under its own terms and not to any instruction you have issued. Even if you chase the dog and catch it, you have effectively returned to the dog rather than the other way round, so what does this teach it?
This is why, time and time again I try to instill on owners the importance of the STOP, it should be taught and taught and taught again, a dog should NOT be off a lead if you have not got it `ON THE STOP' as you have not got control of that dog! ( No matter how much you try and convince yourself!) Yes, there are times that even dogs `on the stop' succumb to temptation, after all training the stop requires training it in all `environments' in a steady progression, so you are bound to reach a point where temptation breaks your training point. However being a simple action to command, the dog can be brought back to the point of transgression and corrected quickly and positively re-trained, this is well within the abilities of the dogs understanding, and by re-training in the very environment that was beyond your reached training point, you effectively continue moving forward. Yes it would be wise to take a step (or two) back in `environments' and re-train the stop there over the next few days ( weeks), but you would have at least used the transgression in the most positive manner. Even at this breaking point, a well trained stop may give you an extra second of distraction from the temptation to reassert your authority and take back your control, when the dog was going to break. A second blast on the stop whistle may stop the dog in this period of thought, and whilst this should not be used frequently, ( as it teaches the dog to ignore the first whistle), it can maintain control of the dog.
A well trained stop effectively means the dog sits without thinking about it, the act of sitting at the very least will break the dogs stride and allow the `temptation' to move further away and create a `pause for thought' in the dogs mind, which, if you have the respect of your dog is really all you should need, after all you are the boss, aren't you? You were leading the hunt were you not? You and the dog were communicating through out while it was hunting ( off lead)?
Now for the `out of control' bit. I'm not going to beat around the bush, FREE running is not a RIGHT for the dog, it is something that has to be earned through obedience. Yes we all like to see these dogs running free, and yes they do get obvious pleasure from being able to do it, and yes some of us don't want to be constantly attached to our dogs via a lead! BUT THATS WHY WE TRAIN. By putting a value on free running for the dog, we can give the dog the correct perspective for the whole relationship that we are in. The dog has to learn that everything in its life depends on us, everything has a price, and its a price the dog pays us not the other way around.
I often get the impression that some think my own dogs must lead a very restricted, disciplined life, however this can not be further from the truth. I put the training in early, and establish their boundaries and consistently maintain them, they have more freedom and leeway into mischief because of this! Because I have their respect and they have my trust, in them and their training, they probably experience more freedom than most dogs, and all this because I can train a dog to sit on a blown whistle!
Peter

I missed the bit about yipping, at eight months this dog is far to young to be loose around game, and not being directed/led by the handler. The yipping is out of frustration as it senses are being activated without the mind being shown the purpose. The primary purpose of your dog is to find and POINT the game, for YOU not chase and kill it itself. You need to act quickly before this yipping becomes habitual, or your dog is going to be effectively useless as a gundog. Once again the stop can be used to correct this, both from `cooling' off a `hot' dog and building an understanding of your understanding of the fact that the dog has found game and it has been appreciated. Stopping the chase and building steadiness can also be rewarded at the stop, or punished by returning the dog to the lead and finishing the `hunt' if the dog refused the stop.
Given the post as a whole I would advise curtailing ALL free running until you build the dogs focus on you as there are obvious communication issues that need addressing before you let the dog anywhere near game. The best discipline for this would be concentrating on retrieving and obedience and stay well away from hunting either intentionally or by free running. Barking should never be rewarded except when its tortverbelling.

Recall

Hello, sorry I have not been on for so long, I do read the blog but having lack of time and pictures since my camera is broken I don't really post much. I was reading about Ziggy and it is the exact problems I have had with Ceilidh. Teenage cloth lug symdrome I like to call it. Do you have a favourite toy? I know Karen with Maggie gave me some wonderful advice, she used a ball and for Ceilidh I used a frisbee, infact I used 2 to begin with so we had a relay system to start with. If so try to use it on a good recall as a treat, especially good if your munster does not like treats on walks. Ceilidh could not care less for any treats on a walk. I didn't use it on every recall so she didn't get bored. It took a long time to get it going well but now she is brilliant and I don't take the frisbee on walks very often as she can now manage to do her sniffing and hunting but stay close and recall well, or at the very least stand still and wait for me to catch up while she watches whatever she has found run off. I know that is not ideal but you cannot expect perfect results every time :)
I don't know what your surroundings are like but we live in the countryside and it is packed with wildlife just wandering in the fields and wooded areas where we walk so it has taken some time to get to this point. Good luck!
Ceilidh is very well at the moment, and enjoying having the fields back as her play ground for a while. I really must get a new camera to get some pictures to pop up. Cannot believe she is now 3 aswell, how time flies. Happy belated birthday to all of the truely litter! Hope everyone is well xx

recall problems

Hi Helen,
This all sounds very familiar (quite comforting to know we aren't the only ones!). Murphy is now nearly 14 months old and despite lots of training and recall work we just can't compete with pheasants, horses, cows, sheep, trailers and tractors to name but a few. It is particularly difficult at the moment because we are in the middle of the shooting season, so, although we do let Murphy off the lead we are always on red alert and if we know there are potential distractions he stays on the lead and we do lots of heel work. Our trainer has told us to make being on the lead fun by playing with him, but this also proves difficult because he is more interested in what is going on around him and hence he looks at us with complete disdain. It's as if he's saying "whatever".
Considering he follows us around at home and hates being left when we go out, it is a bit baffling why he completely ignores us when there is something better on offer.
If there is an answer I would love to know, but I think it is a case of persisting with the training and being sensible if you think they are at any risk.
We had a lovely walk this morning actually, where he was on the lead for part of it, then I put him on an extendable lead (probably cheating a bit!) and he also had a little run off the lead so it was good for both of us.
Certainly, everyday is an adventure!

Recall Problems

Hi,
Don't know if anyone else has this problem: Ziggy is now 8 months old and is delightful in the house and garden, however we simply cannot let her off the lead on a walk as she immediately takes off after any bird or game she sees or scents and will not come back to either a verbal command or the whistle. If there were no cars, sheep, pheasants, barbed wire or farmers we could let her run but since all those hazards exist she has to be protected. We spend a great deal of time training her and constantly reinforcing the basics as well as encouraging her to retrieve but are at a loss as to how to channel her incredibly high prey drive. Since she is very vocal and yips whenever there are birds around we don't know whether she will be acceptable on shoots in future. If anyone has any suggestions they would be gratefully received.

Just a little update on our retrieving training, we're training outside in the garden now but still using the clicker at the moment and making sure I pick up some of the retrieves while Mazy sits. We only do about 5 retrieves in one session, then do a bit of heelwork and recall. Thank you all for your advice, I feel like we're getting somewhere now. Just need to keep at it.

Hi Louden,
There was recently a discussion on the workinghpr forum on the subject of training and how long does it go on for, and there was some lively opinions on whether training ever finishes with a hpr. A great deal depends on your definition of `training' and whether you distinguish it from `experience' and how this effects the work for which you trained. What a dog experiences in the field will always have a subtle effect on what you have trained, some good and some bad, as a handler you must always be aware of these effects and be ready to encourage or dissuade the dog from what it has learnt from experience so that the function of good work is maintained.
There are varying opinions on Large munsterlanders giving tongue on game, and whether it was bred for or if it is just the dog thinking through a situation. I have listened to both sides and I tend to be a little sceptical of it being a specific trait which was bred for, as it always seem to be those with noisy/excitable dogs that make this claim, and use it as an excuse for their dogs behaviour!
However, in finding a track and or large unretrievable game such as deer or boar it is a natural canine trait to give tongue, especially in cover as it holds the pack together or draws the pack to the kill. This is not the same has hunting for live, un-wounded quarry, where silence and stealth are required, any noise or vocalisation is counter productive to the hunting process. Giving tongue whilst hunting has always been regarded as a fault not only because of this but also it indicates an unsuitable temperament ( immaturity and excitability), I would add to this in that the dog will often give tongue out of frustration at not being understood by the handler in hunting situations.
This is not to say that these dogs should never give tongue in the right situation, and often they will do it without training, and it proves just how intelligent they are. My first bitch gave tongue ( one single `light' bark) on two occasions, both Field Trials, I instinctively knew what she was communicating on both occasions, she was asking for instructions as she was unsure. The first was in the KC's own FT where she found a fresh hare track on the edge of her beat and running back, I called her off, but the yip was commented on by the judge, who said "I'm not sure I heard that, but if I hear it again you will be out. " This would not have been that bad, except that a writer for the Shooting Times was covering the event, and this was later put into print!
The second occasion was when we were called up to retrieve a runner unfound by the preceding dog. We were in a wood and the judge pointed in an area up ahead and to the right. I released the dog with a HI lost, she went straight to the point of fall and then bared left and disappeared. I trusted my dog and stayed quiet, after a while, the judge retorted that if I did not get the dog back to the area he thought the bird was in he would pull me out. Then I heard the yip, she had found the bird, but as a strong runner she wanted confirmation that it was alright to pick it ( according to the gun later that day, it was sitting tight in a thickett of brambles) I repeated the HI lost and waited, The judge started figetting for his book and pencil and commented `You can't say I didn't warn you' at which point my dog appeared from around the corner with the bird! After a consultation with the gun as to if it was the correct bird, and with the second judge I was allowed to continue, neither had heard the yip, but we were out later that day anyway as we could not fill our card.
Peter

Great retrieving advice from everyone - still helpful even though Lula has been gundog for three seasons. I found I've had to keep up the training all the time, but it is great fun for both of us. Their pretty intelligent and do need constant stimulation if their to perform at their best. I guess it is a little easier if you are using them as working dogs with a specific task. But like horses out hunting the adrenaline levels rise sharply when their in the field!! Incredibly satisfying though and now gives me far more pleasure than the actual shooting.I would be interested to know whether originally the Munsterlander was trained to give notice of a find by barking. The theory being that they would hunt, let you know of a find, point, flush and, assuming you've been successful, retrieve the bird? I've also found it interesting to note that of the three that I've had each has a greater instinct in one or other of these. For example Monty was a great pointer, Lula definitely prefers to hunt and Tansy loves the retrieving element. One thing they all loved was - water!

Hi Karen, there are no hard rules as to how much retrieving you do, little and often are usually better than one long session, as it allows the dog time to absorb what it has been doing between sessions, and it allows you to see what the dog has absorbed and learnt and then adjust the next session accordingly. A word of warning, ( again) just because the dog does something on numerous occasions does not necessarily mean its learnt the instruction to the behaviour, only when the dog does the right behaviour to your instruction in a `variety' of environments can you be sure that the association has been established.

Its very important to remember, that to a dog, especially a young dog, retrieving is a game! The onus is on you to maintain this perception, it must remain fun to do and you have to add variety, allowing the dog to move forward and feel good about its expanding achievements, whilst maintaining a competent ability. Never let the dog dwell on failure, if you go to far or too fast with training and you see the dog is not likely to succeed, stop the dog ( you have all trained the stop!) and do something basic which you can reward, in retrieving terms, even allowing the dog to see you go out and pick the retrieve yourself, whilst in the stop, can build respect from the dog towards you, in fact when retriever training at least one retrieve should not be given to the dog at each session, this adds value to the retrieve and improves steadiness.

Hi Penny, As I have mentioned before, retrieving is a game, first the game has to be learned. At this point I would just mention that dummies are not toys, they are items of yours that are highly valued. Part of the transition from a game to work involves this understanding and separation. A good natural retriever brings you IT's toys from which the game of retrieving begins. i.e. Handler takes toy and makes it move, requiring puppy to chase it, capture it ( kill it)
and bring it back to show what a good hunter it has been. Handler quiz's the puppy to what it has, puppy drops toy, handler gives puppy reward and makes it feel good and therefore is happy to do it again. The game has been established. In order for the game to continue the dog must get use to sharing its possessions whilst being confident that it will get them back, and at the same time bringing things ( non-toys) to the handler is always a worthwhile thing to do. Only when the puppy has this understanding would I consider starting with a dummy, as that's when rules start being introduced to the `game', and they must be mature enough to except them.
In your case I would go back to using a tennis ball or similar, play the game, after the first few times where you can fetch the ball if the pup does not bring it back, start, stop playing the game when the dog does not bring it in close, and walk away, from the pups point of view the game is not much fun on its own, and you may quickly find that it soon comes looking for you, and with any luck will be carrying the ball, in which case the game can continue, thus a valuable lesson has been learnt.
Peter

retrieving

I've just been reading all the blogs about finding, picking up and returning a dummy, it's very interesting and helpful.
I'm just starting the basics with Lola, but she's being very scatty and basically not concentrating, running around with the dummy and ignoring me when I tell her to bring it back, despite lots of praise ( and even a sweety sometimes..). She will pick up, but it's the coming back, holding and dropping that seem to much for her. Am I expecting too much - I think I probably am - she's only 8 months old. Please could I get some advice for the very basics from you more experienced folk !! Minden the 5 yr old, picked it all up pretty quickly when she was younger, with very informal training from my husband - Lola seems to be far more stubborn at the moment....

I'm really pleased, Mazy has retrieved a thrown dummy and presented it to me several times in our hall way this morning. I know we're a long way from getting outside but still making progress. I'm still clicker training so she only gets the click when she delivers the dummy correctly. I don't want her to get bored, so I'm only doing 5-10 retrieves before stopping and doing three or four sessions through the day, is that right?

Hi Karen, the retriever alley is a good tool to use in getting the dog to understand its OK to come in close and give up its prize, but you have to remember it is only a tool. The appropriate timing of praise I mentioned before is critical to the dog learning a good delivery, so ease off on the vocalisation on the return and wait until you have the retrieve in your hand. Be patient, don't make an issue out of any non delivery but wait until the dog gets it right ( giving these dogs the chance to work it out for themselves often gives better long term results) Again don't be in a hurry to take the retrieve from the dog, in a sense you want them to `show' you what they have/found and give them a sense of achievement before you take it from them. In the early stages of play retrieving with toys ( not Dummies) I always give the toy back to the dog and this builds a good foundation of trust. Sharon and Jim also made a good point in what posture you are in to receive the retrieve, this is very important as on the return the dog is reading your body language more than you appreciate, and what you think your saying is often not what the dog sees. A good trainer standing back and watching will pin point these mis-communications and put you right very quickly, so they are well worth seeking out. Many a `shy' retriever has been corrected by simply averting the handlers gaze away from the dog on its return, proof if any was needed how much importance dogs put on eye contact.
Peter

Karen, with only a few years experience at this I'm by far not qualified to give great advice! Peter's advice on taking it slowly is good.
As you mention she is running passed you, you may want to consider standing at a location where Mazy can't run passed you. I have found standing in locations like the 1.5m wide pathway at the side of my house with a gate at the end helped to draw the dogs towards me and eliminated a lot of the opportunities for them to get distracted on the way back with the dummy. Once it's working in the garden then progress to other locations but again stand in places where she can't run passed you eg up against fences. Also you crouching down for the dummy can help.
I never got on well with a long lead. I just got in a mess with it, and ended up flat on my face and winded too many times!
Another bit of advice is listen to experienced trainers and be careful with advice given from beginners like me :) So if Peter cautions you on any of what I've written listen to him and not me!
I hope you are enjoying the training.

Well done to Sandra and Dee with their bronze KC. I've not heard of starters obedience before; what do you have to do for that?

Well done Sandra and Dee Dee on getting your Bronze GC. Mazy got hers at Birmingham last year, we haven't attempted the Silver, although I did enter her in starters obedience this year and did well apart from the retrieve!!

Thank you Peter and Sandra for your advice. Mazy has no shortage of enthusiasm for marking, finding and picking up, it is the messing about on the way back that's the issue. I know it's probably my fault for not making the delivery rewarding enough, she will come back with the dummy after running by me and will sit near me on command and let me take the dummy then, but won't come straight to me. I've been praising on the way back from picking up. I know I talk to her too much and so probably confuse her as well.

I've been using a clicker indoors today and have got Mazy holding the dummy for a few seconds before I take it back, following the Trained Retrieve in the Gundog Club Grade One book. So I'm going to persevere with this method and see how we get on this week.

Hi Karen, Its all easy when you know how!!
I'm reading between the lines again, so apologies if I'm on the wrong track, you use the word `proper' in terms of delivery at the same time saying you are just starting gundog training classes, this is the same as trying to run before you can walk! The retrieve, whilst to look at is one complete exercise, is in fact several and a mixture of natural abilities and trained abilities, not all are working towards our desired `retrieve'.
The first priority in training for a good retrieving dog, is encouraging or creating a desire in the dog to find and fetch things, some do this naturally, some do it naturally until they discover `scent' and hunting! and some require well co-ordinated encouragement and enthusiasm from their handler to light the damp touch paper and keep it burning! ( Usually with HPR's its a mix and match of all three!)
I could go on and fill a book, as many have on retrieving and training methods, but to keep to your case, it is likely that by concentrating on the delivery you are giving conflicting signals to the dog once it has found and picked up the retrieve. ( A good game has become a chore to quickly). I see this even in experienced handlers in competition, their desire to get it right in front of a judge often creates confusion and tension in the dog. Some then make matters worse by `ordering' their dog in, and making the game even less worth playing.
There is the other common mistake of praising at the inappropriate part of the retrieve, and this changes as training progresses and depending on the enthusiasm of the dog, so is never easy to understand by the novice. For example in your description I would like to see if you praised on the find, or on the way back, both are right in the early stages of retriever training but should be dismissed with once the dog is doing these fine, praise and fuss should be restricted to ( after)delivery only. The dogs own self belief and desire should drive the dog on to do the retrieve up to the point of delivery, handing something of value over to you is about partnership and respect. Not all is lost if you neither have the respect or have made mistakes in the building of the partnership as there are various training methods and maneuvers to distract the dog from the reluctance to part with its prize, the sit present or walking to heel before taking the retrieve are just two, a good point in which both these methods emphasise, is don't always be in too much of a hurry to take/ snatch the retrieve from the dog, and always treat the retrieve with the respect/value that the DOG thinks it deserves.
Hope there is some enlightenment in the above.
Peter

Little Update

Dee Dee passed the KC Good Citizen Bronze last Saturday.

We had planned to do the silver as well if she passed the bronze, but it wasn't available on the day, so after frantically practising send aways all week we didn't get to do it.
It was advertised on the schedule, but gold & silver weren't available on the day.
I had entered her for the starters obedience class as well, but that was on at the same time as the Good Citizen, so we couldn't do that either.
They did have a fun agility ring set up though, and so both Narla and DD had a go at that and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was surprised Narla had remembered everything so well, as it is 4yrs since she did any agility, but she raced round the course, and shot through the tunnel. The jumps were set quite low, so I let DD have a go as well, she had to be coxed through the tunnel the first time but after that she did it on her own, we had a lovely time, and their were lots of lovely dogs their.
Karen I would try Mazy on a long line, that way you can draw her back into you if she is distracted.
Still use your clicker though when she returns. I used clicker training with Morgan (Springer) as she would not hold at the end of a retrieve, just dropped the article on return, but after some help from a trainer who did clicker, she started to hold the article and present it after a retrieve.
I think clicker training really sticks, once they have learned that way, Morgan is now 10 1/2 and I don't do obedience with her now, but she still remembers and does a really good retrieve and present, so stick with it, it is all in the timing. Let us know how you get on.

Retrieving help

Mazy and I have started going to gundog training and need some advice on how to get her to bring the dummy back to me properly. She is very enthusiastic and will retrieve the dummy every time, but gets easily distracted on the way back with it and I can't get her to deliver it straight to me.

I'm trying clicker training indoors and we're nearly there but wonder if this is the easiest method. Does anyone have any good ideas for training her to bring the dummy back to me?

Cosmos

Here is latest picture of Cosmos, third of Talleulah's 10 puppies, happily living in Connecticut. Absolutely fascinated by the fish and, astonishingly, not leaping in as we all know how much Munsters love the water!